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Author Topic: Eldritch Theurge and Eldritch Disciple question  (Read 9064 times)

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May 31, 2012, 02:07:09 AM

The manual makes it appear these two classes are both 10 level and then come to an end.  Is that correct?

(Given that a player would then have to choose whether to advance invocations or spellcaster after that, it wouldn't make either class very practical for an epic level game.)


May 31, 2012, 03:43:08 AM
Reply #1
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Correct. I don't have epic progressions for these classes yet. Any suggestions?


May 31, 2012, 03:58:42 AM
Reply #2

I think I recall seeing some possibilities online.  As soon as I get a chance, I'll check them out and let you know if I find anything that looks viable.


May 31, 2012, 05:28:34 AM
Reply #3

Wow!  There actually isn't very much online at that.

Here is a suggestion for Eldritch Theurge epic progresssion from http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19530402/?pg=last

"The cold iron resistance would keep going up and so would the spell casting. The bonus feats would be every 4 or 6 levels, I'm thinking four because warlock isn't as powerful as a cleric and doesn't really benefit from an increased spell casting level except to beat spell resistance and be dispelled. "

The important thing in any build like that would be progressing both invoker level and caster level, as well as eldritch blast.  Beyond that, it would be logical to add one more level of cold iron resistance every four levels (as with warlock).  It probably makes sense to do some kind of increasing number of uses of fiendish resilience and to have, as the poster above suggests, some kind of schedule for bonus feats.  I can't think of anything else that should necessarily be added.

Here is an Eldritch Disciple progression that appears to grow out of an Eldritch Disciple description very much like the one you used in creating the PRC class:

http://aaronwiki.us/index.php?title=Eldritch_Disciple

The problem with this one is that it appears to require coding epic level gifts of the divine partron.  Personally, I'd settle for drawing relevant feats from those already existing.  Again, invoker level, caster level, eldritch blast, and in this case turning undead, should all progress.  Beyond that, I don't see anything else as being necessary.

In both cases, it would just be nice to have the basic features progress.  As I have said, I don't really have a strong desire for any other particular feature.



May 31, 2012, 06:52:18 AM
Reply #4
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In D&D 3.5 Eldritch Theurge would probably gain +1 caster level every 2 levels (like Mystic Theurge).

To be honest - divine gifts suck! But I'll check epic versions when I get back home - maybe they're better and I'll code them ;)

I talked with Shalvan about removing Turn Undead requirement for Eldritch Disciple (as suggested in source book), but I didn't come up with any other way of fueling divine gifts. Any thoughts on this matter?


May 31, 2012, 03:12:26 PM
Reply #5

Does the eldritch blast progression even work for those classes? When I tried the classes, I still had to take 20 levels of Warlock first to qualify for Epic Eldritch Blast.


May 31, 2012, 03:17:02 PM
Reply #6
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Does the eldritch blast progression even work for those classes? When I tried the classes, I still had to take 20 levels of Warlock first to qualify for Epic Eldritch Blast.
That's because it's impossible to implement in NWN xd6 eldritch blast requirement ;p. And yes, eldritch blast damage is based on invoker level. Both classes add to invoker level so blast damage is improving.


May 31, 2012, 11:14:32 PM
Reply #7

In D&D 3.5 Eldritch Theurge would probably gain +1 caster level every 2 levels (like Mystic Theurge).

To be honest - divine gifts suck! But I'll check epic versions when I get back home - maybe they're better and I'll code them ;)

I talked with Shalvan about removing Turn Undead requirement for Eldritch Disciple (as suggested in source book), but I didn't come up with any other way of fueling divine gifts. Any thoughts on this matter?

To be honest, I am confused by the mechanics of dual progression prestige classes.  Up until reading this reply I thought that they progressed both classes' spellcasting each level, not just in pre-epic levels.  From a strategic standpoint, is it worth sacrificing caster level for versatility that much, when caster level has such a strong impact on the effectiveness of your spells?  It seems as if it makes sense to take such a prestige class as long as it progresses both classes' spellcasting, then dump it and either specialize in one of the two classes, or alternate between the two classes, which would give you as much spellcasting as the prestige class and progress all the other class features the prestige class doesn't have.  Is there something about these classes that I am missing?

(I've really never played PNP.  I tried reading some of the forum discussions, which seem to divide along the lines of "Oh, my God, Mystic Theurges suck," and "Oh, my God, Mystic Theurges are overpowered," but with most people taking the first opinion.  The information is also not very helpful because a lot of it comes from the time before 3.5, when only 20 level builds were possible.  I can't even find many references to epic dual spell progression under 3.5.  The one thing I do notice, though, is that in PNP there are a lot of dual progression classes, so that when one runs out of full dual progression, a player can switch to another.  That doesn't work in NWN because of the three class limit, which makes the dynamic a little different and might make it worth a discussion of whether dual progression should work in the PRC exactly as it does in PNP.)

I don't know enough about the mechanics of divine gifts to respond intelligently to the last question.


June 02, 2012, 12:18:08 AM
Reply #8

In D&D 3.5 Eldritch Theurge would probably gain +1 caster level every 2 levels (like Mystic Theurge).

To be honest - divine gifts suck! But I'll check epic versions when I get back home - maybe they're better and I'll code them ;)

I talked with Shalvan about removing Turn Undead requirement for Eldritch Disciple (as suggested in source book), but I didn't come up with any other way of fueling divine gifts. Any thoughts on this matter?

To be honest, I am confused by the mechanics of dual progression prestige classes.  Up until reading this reply I thought that they progressed both classes' spellcasting each level, not just in pre-epic levels.  From a strategic standpoint, is it worth sacrificing caster level for versatility that much, when caster level has such a strong impact on the effectiveness of your spells?  It seems as if it makes sense to take such a prestige class as long as it progresses both classes' spellcasting, then dump it and either specialize in one of the two classes, or alternate between the two classes, which would give you as much spellcasting as the prestige class and progress all the other class features the prestige class doesn't have.  Is there something about these classes that I am missing?

(I've really never played PNP.  I tried reading some of the forum discussions, which seem to divide along the lines of "Oh, my God, Mystic Theurges suck," and "Oh, my God, Mystic Theurges are overpowered," but with most people taking the first opinion.  The information is also not very helpful because a lot of it comes from the time before 3.5, when only 20 level builds were possible.  I can't even find many references to epic dual spell progression under 3.5.  The one thing I do notice, though, is that in PNP there are a lot of dual progression classes, so that when one runs out of full dual progression, a player can switch to another.  That doesn't work in NWN because of the three class limit, which makes the dynamic a little different and might make it worth a discussion of whether dual progression should work in the PRC exactly as it does in PNP.)

I don't know enough about the mechanics of divine gifts to respond intelligently to the last question.

I believe the dual classes, for the PRC are based on 3.5e open game content versions, such as the cerebremancer. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Cerebremancer

As the PnP version is more like this: http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Cerebremancer_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)


June 02, 2012, 06:01:13 AM
Reply #9
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I believe the dual classes, for the PRC are based on 3.5e open game content versions, such as the cerebremancer. http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Cerebremancer

As the PnP version is more like this: http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Cerebremancer_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)
I think the PnP version you provided is acutally homebrew ;p.

Calirion - good point about 3 class limit in NWN. I saw examples of creative use of mystic theurge, arcane hierophant and foulchan lyrist in some builds in PnP. We can't do that in NWN. Also different caster level progression pre- and postepic is a bit harder to code ;)


June 02, 2012, 01:45:26 PM
Reply #10

Here is another question to consider:  why would dual caster classes be treated differently from other prestige classes involving a combination of caster class and non-caster class?

Arcane Trickster gets full caster level increase and full sneak attack progression.  Eldritch Knight gets full caster level increase, and BAB progresses the same way a fighter's would at the same level.  In neither case do we progress the feature of one class on odd levels and one class on even levels.  Instead, the basic feature of each class progresses each level.

I'm not familiar enough with PNP to know why such distinctions were made in the first place.  Perhaps the feeling was that an epic dual caster would be too powerful.  On the other hand, it seems clear that there is little point in an epic prestige caster class that progresses exactly like alternating the two base classes would progress, but without any of the other class features.  Using the Mystic Theurge as an example, after the first 10 levels, if divine casting improves only on odd levels and arcane only on even levels, then the situation is exactly the same as just alternating the two base classes, except that the character loses turn undead progression and familiar progression, and probably takes a little hit on BAB.   Who would do that?

As a consequence, it probably isn't worth coding epic progression for Eldritch Theurge and Eldritch Disciple if both invoking and casting don't progress each level.  In terms of character optimization, a player's best strategy would be to choose one base class or the other after the ten levels of the prestige class and be a full invoker or full caster, with the other style of magic as a secondary supplement.  Others might disagree, but that is my feeling on the issue.


June 02, 2012, 03:13:23 PM
Reply #11
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I totally agree ;D

Eldritch Theurge is almost 'epic-ready'. I only need to add epic warlock feats (some of them may not play nice with ET - like Epic Eldritch Blast mentioned by Mindflayer) and add 'Epic Eldritch Theurge' feat.

Eldritch Disciple will require a bit more work because of those epic divine gifts.


June 03, 2012, 03:56:10 AM
Reply #12

Wow!  You certainly work fast!  That's dedication.


June 03, 2012, 11:07:17 AM
Reply #13

I totally agree ;D

Eldritch Theurge is almost 'epic-ready'. I only need to add epic warlock feats (some of them may not play nice with ET - like Epic Eldritch Blast mentioned by Mindflayer) and add 'Epic Eldritch Theurge' feat.

Eldritch Disciple will require a bit more work because of those epic divine gifts.

Looking forward to Eldritch Theurge epic progession.

I will have to see if I can find the Cerebremancer in some source books just to see what the class progression actually looks likes.


June 03, 2012, 11:56:19 AM
Reply #14
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I found Cerebremancer in Expanded Psionics Handbook. Besides spell and manifesting progression there are no other class features.
(same as on SRD)