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Author Topic: What about the 'double casters'  (Read 4896 times)

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September 21, 2010, 03:18:14 AM

Now let's talk about those who use 2 spell systems together. Which one is more powerful?

Wizard 5/Archivist 5/Mystic Theurge 30: Standard Arcane/Divine

Wizard 5/Psion 5/Cerebremancer 30: Arcane/Psionic based on Int

Sorcerer 5/Wilder 5/Cerebremancer 30: Arcane/Psionic based on Cha

Archivist 5/Psion 5/Psionic Theurge 30: Divine/Psionic based on Int

So is it wise to build Arcane or Divine spells with Psionics? I've no idea... it seems that Psionic is not so powerful as Arcane & Divine spells, even there're meta feats such as Twin & Chain...


September 21, 2010, 04:14:51 AM
Reply #1

williamiii,

It probably comes down to bonus feats and ability scores, race and garbage WotC mechanics. I have not compared CM v. PsyTheurge v. MT bonus feats in a while, but am guessing they are close. L5 Wiz does have a couple bonus feats on L5 Sor IIRC. At Epic levels, 2 extra feats can be mighty handy. Depends on how much value is placed on spells / day v. feats. In order to use multiple meta-psi's at the same time, you need to waste feats on getting more psi-foci and reducing meta-psi costs (i.e. Imp Meta-Psi III). If you plan to use the PRC to mitigate the garbage mechanic, Psi can be fun, if not, Psi will waste too many feats. Arc / Divine meta-magics synergize, but the meta-psi's don't mix - which wastes feats.

I like the Int based synergy in that you have the same primary ability AND you have great skill points. Although the L5 Arch BAB is 1 lower than L5 CL, you've got Div Power, so it should cancel later. You do miss Divine Might / Shield by losing turn undead. I'm guessing that is not a deal breaker. DM / DS can help for Nymph / Rak builds.

Your INT based builds would certainly be stronger than my MT build due to synergy v. MAD. Does this mean a .bic post is imminent?

If you go the Wilder route, you may want to hold the last level at 39 or 40 because Tumble is a Wilder class skill.

Nymph and Rakshasa are the best Cha types. Nymph for AC & saves, Rak for uber SR. If you have Epic Spell Reflection, the Nymph is a little better.

Mindflayer is generally best for Int based + uber SR.

If you want power, take a look at L10 Lich. Heh Heh.:D
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 04:36:48 AM by ThE LoSt BoY »
Fermi was a Pyrokineticist


September 21, 2010, 08:49:11 AM
Reply #2

Thanks a lot, lost boy~ ur analysis is great!

But now let me make the question easier: Wizard 5/Archivist 5/Mystic Theurge 30, or Sorcerer 5/Wilder 5/Cerebremancer 30, which is the better build of a Nymph in the mass?

Here's my opinion:

1 Ability: Nymph is high both in Int & Cha, and can get bonus through Cha, so Cha is a bit better, but Int-base is also OK for me

2 Feats: of course the Cerebremancer's feats are lacking, for Psionic & Arcane can't share any feats...

3 What I care most is, whose spells are more powerful... the Mystic Theurge is just a 'Spellbook', while the Cerebremancer knows only a few Arcane & Psionic spells but can cast more freely. So are Psionic spells so powerful that the lack of feats can be ignored?

Thanx again!


September 24, 2010, 12:30:37 AM
Reply #3

"3 What I care most is, whose spells are more powerful... the Mystic Theurge is just a 'Spellbook', while the Cerebremancer knows only a few Arcane & Psionic spells but can cast more freely. So are Psionic spells so powerful that the lack of feats can be ignored?"

The CM powers known are based on base class progression. Psion-CM will know tons of powers, while Wilder-CM just has 11. Choose wisely, Wilder. Same thing with the Sor-CM.

The real question you need to address is, are you going battling super SR races or not?

Mindflayer (aka Illithid) SR ~ 25, Rakshasa SR is 27, max monk is 30. SR is based on char level, so an L40 char with SR 27 has an effective SR of 67. Psi-manifesters can get to ~ L40 with double-caster + Max Power Pen chain ~ 6 + 3 Overchannel for around 49. That means you would need a check roll of 18 or more (~ 15% chance) of affecting the target. If your opponent had a 67 SR and Resonating Resistance (forces a second check if first succeeds), your check has ~ 2.25% (15% * 15%) chance of success.

Almost all damaging / insta-death Arcane and Divine spells allow SR, whereas Crystal Shard and Ecto-Shambler do not allow SR or save.

If SR is NOT a worry, you can probably do more damage with Arcane / Divine spells (which auto-scale damage with level) because of fast pp burn down (psi-classes have to pay pp to augment).

Hope that helps.
Fermi was a Pyrokineticist


September 24, 2010, 09:01:03 AM
Reply #4

Mmmm... I see...

As there's "Lower Spell Resistance", I think I needn't worry about SR too much ("not too much" isn't "not at all"...), and recently I find that the Psionic System of PRC is not so completed (no Expanded Knowledge or Epic Psionic Powers yet)... maybe the traditional Arcane/Divine 'spell encyclopaedia' is better...


September 24, 2010, 11:31:05 AM
Reply #5

Quote from: william_iii

"Lower Spell Resistance"...


... doesn't work on Monks.  Nor does Disjunction.
HEATSTROKE


September 24, 2010, 03:09:52 PM
Reply #6

DMHS is right. Sorry to say the Bozo-ware idiots HARD-EFFING-CODED Monk SR never to go down.

This is why the only casters that can always beat the uber-class' SR (best saves, best AC, best skills, Free hardcoded SR, free Imp Evasion, most attacks in the games, lowest debit between attacks, better damage dice than weapons ....) is RWoT and Hiero/ Runecaster. That is why I posted them.


"This feat stacks with diamond soul for a maximum possible spell resistance of 70. "
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Improved_spell_resistance

If you look hard enough you can find that uber class (monk) SR is hardcoded (Lower SR / Mord's D DON'T WORK on the monks).

Don't worry, you can dissolve them with Twin + Extended Ecto-Shambler (no SR, no save, magical dam) or tear them to pieces with Tw+Max+Emp C-Shard (same) while you sit behind Epic Warding. He He.:D
Fermi was a Pyrokineticist


September 25, 2010, 01:50:01 AM
Reply #7

So maybe a Archivist/Psion will work fine~ I think Archivist is better than Wizard

PS: that's because I've changed the scripts and made Int the key ability of bonus spell slots of Archivist instead of Wis:P


September 25, 2010, 06:33:33 PM
Reply #8

For Int based builds, don't forget Insightful 'flexes.
Fermi was a Pyrokineticist